27 replies to this topic

[cyberic]

Right...

It is not easy to answer to all this, but I will try to do my best.

>I can´t believe considering Linux still runs on amiga´s and other computers with much less >memory than this.
We'll talk about memory problem later.
It is true that Linux CAN run on some Amiga or Atari machines, but you cannot really launch GRAPHICAL apps except a simple window manager and maybe a terminal.

>Sorry I said I am missing the point, maybe I was expecting a BIOS replacement, The whole >operating system(not X not all the gnu utilities but the kernel=Linux) would fit in the >BIOS.
What would you do with it? GP32Linux cannot even launch GP32 native apps.

>You could replace fat12 with ntfs in Linux. I have suggested two file systems which would >be quite useful, because of the benefits the would bring.
NTFS? are you crazy?
First, NTFS was not designed to be an embedded Filesystem at all.
Second, there is no way to have write access to any NTFS filesystem with linux (except with some tricks, see 'captive' project)


>Reiserfs because ...
>Squashfs because...
We are already using squashfs for a part in GP32Linux. The ramdisk filesystem is squashfs. But it is read only.

>I mentioned a browser I chose one that did not use X because that is an overhead of the >console(black screen you remember from your msdos days). Was Links because it does not >need the overhead of X. I mention the browser because I want my gp32 for games, and one of >the things I have seen mentioned is a browser. I selected the most appropriate in my >opinion If it is appropriate at all.
Xfree IS running on gplinux. Links as well

Games using the framebuffer or x window could be ported.

>Do the nature of emulation on the gp32 and the nature of the storage capacity I want to >use Goodmerge/7z the libaries are available and could be setup to be used quite easily, >The benefit Linux would bring in doing this would be great.
Could you explain your point a bit please?

>I also mention the Matchbox project because if the desire is to have an x server these >guys do the windows manager right! I think it speaks for itself.
I've managed to compile it but it stills eats lots of mem.
Nano-X and the integrated WM seems more appropriate.

>There are small x servers like Smallx already and damn good one s I cant understand why >anyone would create a new one. If one at all.
Smallx is in fact Kdrive, which is the X server we use on the GP.

>Frame buffer console not just for games Mplayer uses it will it be as fast as gpcinema. It >does compile on the arm chip and can read files in many formats, and is a damn sight more >useful than a browser.
You're right.
I successfully compiled mplayer once and was able to play a .mpg video.
But there is not enough CPU power to decode a full size Divx.

>In summary I can see from what could be a truly open source device (the reason I bought >the gp32 in the first place) are enormous). think this page and the screenshots say it all >esp when compared with the screenshots from gp32linu. This page goes points out a lot of >the packages possible on the gp32 look at the specs it shows me what gp32linux could be My >question is it isn´t. Its not even close this could be revolutionary for the gp32 but its >not.
It could be if someone cares and has time to work on it...
Are you one of them? If yes, help us!

>The whole point of porting Linux(other than the joy of doing it) is to use the programs >already available with no porting of applications just using them.
It is not always possible, however we have Zaurus compatibility.

>I posted the links read some of them. I´m not ashamed of my ignorance but clearly you are.
Reading them is not sufficient, I'm afraid...

>I´m not criticizing the project, but like I said confused. It is possible to run apps in >under a meg Bill Gates stated as much himself, but 7.5mb does seem an awful lot. It would >explain why its not using many of the standard small device applications. Again I do not >understand why I´m sure Vimacs will point to the place in this manual.(I wonder if its in >pdf format).
The problem right know is that GPLinux is in early stages.
The GP has 8mo of ram, but it is already filled in with:
- The Kernel
- The initial ramdisk
- The 'Init' program
- A shell
- the program to use a chatboard
- Various caches (filesystem cache, and so on)
- And more: Memory used by the TCP/IP stack, for instance (I agree we could compile this out)
In fact, it leave a bit more than 1meg. GPLinux reports 1meg, but some more memory can be freed when launching bigger apps.
But the app would first have to be loaded in Ram, which would consume some memory as well.

Do you understand better now what the memory is used for?


>It could bring(guess guess guess) Many of the things I´ve stated above, but with only a >meg of memory to play with. I´m having a laugh. Because when I think of the GP32 I think >of it as a gaming device. So I think perhaps mistakenly what new games can it now play. >Will game development be easier. Can standard game libs be used instead of the obscure >gp32 sdk so development can be done on the PC and when the next open handheld come along. >Move over with little to no fuss.
You can use sdl an framebuffer libraries to develop games. You can even test your games on an ARM emulator on a PC (qemu).

>I´ve not made (much)conjecture on gp32 linux will bring to me, but currently I see none. >Not a thing. Not even around the corner, And love linux because of the benefits it gives >me.
And you said all that for THIS conclusion?

>My guess and it will be wrong Is everything is running from what I would call a ramdisk. >All the programs everything that could be run from the GP32 is loaded into memory. This is >based on the fact that everything seems to take up so much space 7megs is an awful lot. >There may be a really good reason for doing this. Literally the whole OS is loaded into >memory not run from disk. making a really efficient OS really inefficient.
You're wrong. There is only an INITIAL ramdisk, which stays in memory. After that, you can lauch full applications from the SMC.

>What is clear is gp32linux load Linux from an fxe mounts the files from fat >filestucture(much in the way you could install Linux on an msdos partition. Which really >sucks and is limiting I have installed Linux this way in bad old days. If Linux has to sit >on top of the gp32os there are bound to be limitations. There may be very good reasons for >doing so. I suspect(guess) that the kernel in question passes everything from Linux to >gp32 OS and does little work itself. Much in the way DOSEMU works(In part or in whole).
You're wrong as well.
The bootloader loads the kernel and the initrd from the SMC. It boots on the initrd, then mounts image files (compressed with squashfs) that are on the SMC.
Squashfs compression improves the reading speed.
You are talking about UMSDOS, which has nothing to do with the way GP32Linux works.

Linux does not sit on gpOS neither. The gp OS (if any) is NOT running when GP32Linux is running. Nothing to do with dosemu neither. GP32Linux just 'sees' the GP32 as an ARM CPU, an LCD and some devices.


>(In essence if it works on the zaraus/486sx it will work on the gp32/next generation gp32 >type), To something that turns a 8meg device into a 1meg one crippling its primary purpose >to play games on the move.
There is more than 1meg available, but not as much as on a zaurus...


>If my guesses are correct I am truly disappointed. esp after all have see over the last >couple of days of what can be run on a small Linux device with nothing like the power of >the gp32.
Could you give some examples?


I personaly think GP32Linux can be VERY interesting because it gives USB connectivity to the GP (even if it requires power) as well as (wireless) network connectivity.

I think this project is worth working on it, and as always we need help.

GPLinux can also bring apps to the GP without rewriting everything from start.

So if you want to dsicuss about GP32Linux apps / future uses / code, feel free!

How would you like to use it?



cyberic
GP32Linux developer, with Ingeras and Toholl (yes, we are only 3)
Many thanks to every other people involved.

[Octavious]

OO
well, that answered a few questions I had about GPLinux
So, if we have over a meg of ram, whats the odds of having an emulator run off of the USB device?

~Octavious

[Cyclops]

But the typical desktop Linux "graphics stack" isn't well suited to embedded Linux applications. Embedded devices frequently have highly constrained resources and can afford neither the program storage space nor the memory footprint of desktop graphics software. For example, embedded devices may easily have as little as 2 to 16 MB of Flash disk from which to load programs, and 4 to 32 MB of RAM memory in which to run them. But the typical desktop graphics components are notorious resource hogs . . .

    * X Window System: 5MB RAM, 16MB disk
    * GNOME: 14MB RAM, 95MB disk
    * KDE: 11MB RAM, 96MB disk
    * Mozilla: 12MB RAM, 26MB disk

The Embedded Linux GUI/Windowing Quick Reference Guide

I know I was overegging the point over amigas/st albeit these are very low memory/slow machines if the answer/memory power but the fact remains that is you are planning on running a web server/ other server as in suggesten in other posts in the forum. Any attempt at a GUI should be bypassed completely. Leaving well 7 megs of memory.

I don´t really care about ntfs(although I do wish it was available for my windows box, but I suspect I will have to wait for ReactOS to become stable before then). To be absolutely honest I use the default on whatever windows. The point I was making is a distraction. I was actually talking about fat being perhaps not being the best file stucture to use. I hate fat12 I know I can use VFAT, but really no GP32 program really takes advantage of this. My reasons are speed/storage/filename length. 128mb should be 128mb.

sqashfs I was not really thinking of being used for a disk image. But really thinking of well a distrobution really(I know I´m thinking possibly ahead, and in reality compeately impracticle). 128mb of squashed files not just the ramdisk filesystem. I know its not straightforward. But an example would be to download all the homebrew games on on image. I can only guess on the space saving. But looking at how much fits on knoppix/slax etc it but it reportedly fits 2.5 times the space onto a CD.

reiserfs etc etc. One of my biggest annoyances is trying to fit 128 megs of files onto a 128 smartmedia card I normally lose about 20megs the gp32 deals with a lot of files. tiny tiny files. I want to fit as many as possible to fit on one card. There are ment to be other benefits but they just might not apply, and have little interest to me.

I wan´t really mentioning the browser. I mention it because it comes up far too regularly. Because I just don´t get it. I have a device with no powered usb(without a mod perhaps) 6 buttons and a joystick. I want to play games on it. Ok maybe wath movies listen to OGG files, look at pictures, but well mainlly to play games. I made a descision to buy this instead of a pda because well. I would only really play games on it. The usb to sync with the machine is great. I´m not saying to people use a GP32 like a computer. I´m saying yes to games games games, and no to carrying my gp32 and a hard disk or even something as small as a pen drive around. I could see the use if practicle wireless(no soldering, no cables) was to happen, but its not likely. And I would use it to access more games/ play multiplayer).

The games I am talking about are the ones that already use the framebuffer(and thats the kiddy I´m interested in), There on linux already. I´m not saying they need tweaking, and angbands never gonna happen). but the idea is they are native(ish) as apposed to ports. I would be more interested if the GP32 games moved to a linux environment than the other way around. I did some conversion from cobol to visual basic, C isn´t all that strong. Although I did spend some time looking at autoporting from Allegro to the gp32sdl and did a few things by hand. I don´t know where my notes are. But if someone had an example I would be very interested in doing the rest. I am thinking of when mono hits 2.0. And trying to use more native tools. For a job.

Sorry about the goodmerge/7z thing I´m obsessed with fitting more and more onto my cards. I extra compress my zips etx using advcomp witch allows me to fit more on a card. All emulators store things in zips to be it makes sence to use the most efficient compressor available that just happens to be 7z(If bzip2/other is better cut and paste). It just makes sense to me to do so. You can see mainstream emulation already starting to dabble. Goodmerge uses a feature of 7z that allows grouping of similar files together so 15 versions of the same game do not use more space than than 1 getting a 15 times space saving. Ok you only need the one version. But the idea of having a hacked version with an unhacked version appeals to me and would save me a lot of time filtering the files. Also because of the way it works I quickly know which of my games are say Japanese only my preference would be English, but if Japanese if the only option I would choose that. It wasn´t fair of me to mention this as really this stuff is only on windows for now. So would require some effort.

As for your suggestion that you need help. I´m really not sure what help you would need. I am very interested in project. Although I think your(team) goals and mine are different. I have little or not inerest in the kernel my C in not strong enough yet. And my understanding in this area is pretty low. 3 groups to my knowledge have tried to get linux up on the GP32 and failed, that suggests to me its a bit tricky, and something I´m not particularly interested in. If you need donkey work with worked examples/ strpping the excess fat of a distribution. I´m more than willing to do anything.

I´m surpised at what you have said over matchbox(although I admit I am more exited by the eye candy). I can´t find out the memory footprint of matchbox all I can see is its binary size 50k. Although I do notice it has many optional components. And it mentions watches for hevens sake. Have you got an example of output from xrestop.

Wow mplayer. I´m very surprised(not about the Divx thing. But just wonder other than the variaty of usable file formats is there any gains over gpcinema or the reverse.

I see I misunderstood about the kdrive when on the main site I misinterpreted. Although I normally see results for kdrive being about slighty over 1.5meg which I think very good considering. And GTK+ can be stipped down to about a meg. I can´t believe you would want to many sophisticated in x itself. So there is still lots of room. I am a little confused by the screenshots most are really ugly and are in portrait like a pda which is just not natural. Any reason for doing this?

I´m pleased that it will bring compatibility. And that I have a reason Why I am interested so much in thin project. Really pleased if I get to play with qemu,

The problem right know is that GPLinux is in early stages.
The GP has 8mo of ram, but it is already filled in with:
- The Kernel
- The initial ramdisk
- The 'Init' program
- A shell
- the program to use a chatboard
- Various caches (filesystem cache, and so on)
- And more: Memory used by the TCP/IP stack, for instance (I agree we could compile this out)
In fact, it leave a bit more than 1meg. GPLinux reports 1meg, but some more memory can be freed when launching bigger apps.

This is your memory usage I am missing somthing and perhaps this is my only issue. With this project. I´m getting conflicting information. Do these things listed need to be in memory. I´m happy with what it can do as linux. Am I happy to use it as a platform for playing for playing games. ie due to the overhead of linux. What would be the impact of the 20 or so emulators available, and the homebrew games moving over to linux. I see the benefits of having a Powerful yet small OS sat underneath. Hell its what the gizmondo has done with windows ce. How much at the end of the day can this be stripped down to 5 megs, 2megs. 1meg. when I´m playing a game I do not need a chatboard/TCPIP I need next to nothing. Essentially Linux that brings more to GP32 than it takes away. I download wesnoth just compile it for arm and its done. Its a fast processer had more than enough storage hell linux will add more. The bottleneck as I see it rightly or wrongly is it takes up most of the memory on the gp32 crippling the device.

What I want is a linux device for playing games with all the stuff(and the stuff is enormous) it can bring. I switch it on my card is formated to reiserfs. I don´t run through an fxe. There is no such thing as an fxe. Its just linux with the nomal /bin /boot /dev etc filestucture. It loads straight into X. I select DrMD linux ed and play Micro Machines 2: Turbo Tournament Edition. What I want is linux without the overhead. I know there will be an overhead. The question is what is the cost of linux on the GP32. Its not linux now its an add on. Its windups. Its tetris game. This is so obvious I can´t understand how to express it in english. I´ts just so obvious

[Octavious]

??
but dont we need the chatboard , ya know , so we can navigate through Linux??

~Octavious

and , I cant wait to see the first emulator running in GPLinux , even if its not full speed , but just to see it all run from the USB

[Cyclops]

I can´t see why you would need chatboard, its just a nice feature. the windows portion runs, It can be completely point and click. On top of which there are virtual keyboards available like xkbd(Ok not really useful). Everything else can be done on your main machine. To configure stuff theres telnet ftp nfs ssh apparently.

[Octavious]

personly, I would rather see the virtual keyboard removed, wouldnt that save room? It really confusing and I have no clue how to use it
and, if you want to use GPLinux, wouldnt just having a chatboard be the best option?
The virtual Keyboard is kinda pointless I think
but I think the chatboard is needed and the virtual one isnt
wouldnt that open more RAM up? even just a bit would be a good thing right?
also, is there a way to expand the current GUI enough to be a browser?
or, if we have to have a seperate program be a browser, and RAm is restricted, could we have Linux start at command prompt and then we could either enter our current GUI or enter a browser

??
just suggestions from a newb trying to learn Linux

~Octavious

[Cyclops]

If you can save memory and get rid of chatboad. That I suppose yes that would be good for you. Although I really can´t imagine a virtual keyboard occupying all that match.

He says links is working. Its a command line browser wich uses the framebuffer.

[Octavious]

so, there already is a file broswer, but it is command line, kinda like DOS??
hmm, thats cool
Im gonna go about getting the last few thing I need and then I will have My own GPLinux machine
o, and just to clearify, I said the Virtual keyboard is kinda useless, not the Chatboard
What good is a comand line browser without a keyboard?

~Octavious

well, I just paid 59$ in last 2 days to get a Linux GP32
I got a USB female to female adaptor , USB hub AC Powered , and a Chatboard
( get ur chatboards from JRSwiss the gp32z guy , hes got 2 left ! )
well, I guess I have to learn Linux now....
in the next 2 weeks or so I am going to get me a USB enclosure for a HDD and then I will be set right?
Is there anyway that I can broswe my camera's file system via Linux while I am waiting for my USB enclosure?

Edited by Octavious, 18 January 2005 - 12:42 AM.

[ingeras]

well
there is a lot that can be done
but we need more time and help

[LOOM]

Is there some blu+ fix? GP linux looks great but it has the white line

[cyberic]

Is there some blu+ fix? GP linux looks great but it has the white line

I'm sure it is doable as we have the source ;-)

But it would be better to ask Toholl, who is the one who really develops the kernel.
Do you know how we are supposed to fix genuine GP apps?

What apps did u try?

[LOOM]

I think it was just launcher or something, I just installed it, launched, saw the line and turned off so I don't know but it's the app that runs when you run the gplinux from european fw launcher

[WrongEyedJesus]

QUOTE
But the typical desktop Linux "graphics stack" isn't well suited to embedded Linux applications. Embedded devices frequently have highly constrained resources and can afford neither the program storage space nor the memory footprint of desktop graphics software. For example, embedded devices may easily have as little as 2 to 16 MB of Flash disk from which to load programs, and 4 to 32 MB of RAM memory in which to run them. But the typical desktop graphics components are notorious resource hogs . . .

    * X Window System: 5MB RAM, 16MB disk
    * GNOME: 14MB RAM, 95MB disk
    * KDE: 11MB RAM, 96MB disk
    * Mozilla: 12MB RAM, 26MB disk


The Embedded Linux GUI/Windowing Quick Reference Guide

I know I was overegging the point over amigas/st albeit these are very low memory/slow machines if the answer/memory power but the fact remains that is you are planning on running a web server/ other server as in suggesten in other posts in the forum. Any attempt at a GUI should be bypassed completely. Leaving well 7 megs of memory.

I don´t really care about ntfs(although I do wish it was available for my windows box, but I suspect I will have to wait for ReactOS to become stable before then). To be absolutely honest I use the default on whatever windows. The point I was making is a distraction. I was actually talking about fat being perhaps not being the best file stucture to use. I hate fat12 I know I can use VFAT, but really no GP32 program really takes advantage of this. My reasons are speed/storage/filename length. 128mb should be 128mb.

sqashfs I was not really thinking of being used for a disk image. But really thinking of well a distrobution really(I know I´m thinking possibly ahead, and in reality compeately impracticle). 128mb of squashed files not just the ramdisk filesystem. I know its not straightforward. But an example would be to download all the homebrew games on on image. I can only guess on the space saving. But looking at how much fits on knoppix/slax etc it but it reportedly fits 2.5 times the space onto a CD.

reiserfs etc etc. One of my biggest annoyances is trying to fit 128 megs of files onto a 128 smartmedia card I normally lose about 20megs the gp32 deals with a lot of files. tiny tiny files. I want to fit as many as possible to fit on one card. There are ment to be other benefits but they just might not apply, and have little interest to me.

I wan´t really mentioning the browser. I mention it because it comes up far too regularly. Because I just don´t get it. I have a device with no powered usb(without a mod perhaps) 6 buttons and a joystick. I want to play games on it. Ok maybe wath movies listen to OGG files, look at pictures, but well mainlly to play games. I made a descision to buy this instead of a pda because well. I would only really play games on it. The usb to sync with the machine is great. I´m not saying to people use a GP32 like a computer. I´m saying yes to games games games, and no to carrying my gp32 and a hard disk or even something as small as a pen drive around. I could see the use if practicle wireless(no soldering, no cables) was to happen, but its not likely. And I would use it to access more games/ play multiplayer).

The games I am talking about are the ones that already use the framebuffer(and thats the kiddy I´m interested in), There on linux already. I´m not saying they need tweaking, and angbands never gonna happen). but the idea is they are native(ish) as apposed to ports. I would be more interested if the GP32 games moved to a linux environment than the other way around. I did some conversion from cobol to visual basic, C isn´t all that strong. Although I did spend some time looking at autoporting from Allegro to the gp32sdl and did a few things by hand. I don´t know where my notes are. But if someone had an example I would be very interested in doing the rest. I am thinking of when mono hits 2.0. And trying to use more native tools. For a job.

Sorry about the goodmerge/7z thing I´m obsessed with fitting more and more onto my cards. I extra compress my zips etx using advcomp witch allows me to fit more on a card. All emulators store things in zips to be it makes sence to use the most efficient compressor available that just happens to be 7z(If bzip2/other is better cut and paste). It just makes sense to me to do so. You can see mainstream emulation already starting to dabble. Goodmerge uses a feature of 7z that allows grouping of similar files together so 15 versions of the same game do not use more space than than 1 getting a 15 times space saving. Ok you only need the one version. But the idea of having a hacked version with an unhacked version appeals to me and would save me a lot of time filtering the files. Also because of the way it works I quickly know which of my games are say Japanese only my preference would be English, but if Japanese if the only option I would choose that. It wasn´t fair of me to mention this as really this stuff is only on windows for now. So would require some effort.

As for your suggestion that you need help. I´m really not sure what help you would need. I am very interested in project. Although I think your(team) goals and mine are different. I have little or not inerest in the kernel my C in not strong enough yet. And my understanding in this area is pretty low. 3 groups to my knowledge have tried to get linux up on the GP32 and failed, that suggests to me its a bit tricky, and something I´m not particularly interested in. If you need donkey work with worked examples/ strpping the excess fat of a distribution. I´m more than willing to do anything.

I´m surpised at what you have said over matchbox(although I admit I am more exited by the eye candy). I can´t find out the memory footprint of matchbox all I can see is its binary size 50k. Although I do notice it has many optional components. And it mentions watches for hevens sake. Have you got an example of output from xrestop.

Wow mplayer. I´m very surprised(not about the Divx thing. But just wonder other than the variaty of usable file formats is there any gains over gpcinema or the reverse.

I see I misunderstood about the kdrive when on the main site I misinterpreted. Although I normally see results for kdrive being about slighty over 1.5meg which I think very good considering. And GTK+ can be stipped down to about a meg. I can´t believe you would want to many sophisticated in x itself. So there is still lots of room. I am a little confused by the screenshots most are really ugly and are in portrait like a pda which is just not natural. Any reason for doing this?

I´m pleased that it will bring compatibility. And that I have a reason Why I am interested so much in thin project. Really pleased if I get to play with qemu,


QUOTE
The problem right know is that GPLinux is in early stages.
The GP has 8mo of ram, but it is already filled in with:
- The Kernel
- The initial ramdisk
- The 'Init' program
- A shell
- the program to use a chatboard
- Various caches (filesystem cache, and so on)
- And more: Memory used by the TCP/IP stack, for instance (I agree we could compile this out)
In fact, it leave a bit more than 1meg. GPLinux reports 1meg, but some more memory can be freed when launching bigger apps.

This is your memory usage I am missing somthing and perhaps this is my only issue. With this project. I´m getting conflicting information. Do these things listed need to be in memory. I´m happy with what it can do as linux. Am I happy to use it as a platform for playing for playing games. ie due to the overhead of linux. What would be the impact of the 20 or so emulators available, and the homebrew games moving over to linux. I see the benefits of having a Powerful yet small OS sat underneath. Hell its what the gizmondo has done with windows ce. How much at the end of the day can this be stripped down to 5 megs, 2megs. 1meg. when I´m playing a game I do not need a chatboard/TCPIP I need next to nothing. Essentially Linux that brings more to GP32 than it takes away. I download wesnoth just compile it for arm and its done. Its a fast processer had more than enough storage hell linux will add more. The bottleneck as I see it rightly or wrongly is it takes up most of the memory on the gp32 crippling the device.

What I want is a linux device for playing games with all the stuff(and the stuff is enormous) it can bring. I switch it on my card is formated to reiserfs. I don´t run through an fxe. There is no such thing as an fxe. Its just linux with the nomal /bin /boot /dev etc filestucture. It loads straight into X. I select DrMD linux ed and play Micro Machines 2: Turbo Tournament Edition. What I want is linux without the overhead. I know there will be an overhead. The question is what is the cost of linux on the GP32. Its not linux now its an add on. Its windups. Its tetris game. This is so obvious I can´t understand how to express it in english. I´ts just so obvious

Does anyone fancy a pint?