232 replies to this topic

[BackAssward]

Do you know the details of the contract? Didn't think so.

What kind of company would make a contract that does not allow for wiggle room? Saying "We will have 4000 LCDs for you by December" is terribly restricting for them and if they were to make contracts like that for any little company that they come across (and this is a small business), then they would be completely unprepared for any issues they would run across in the manufacture of those LCDs.

More than likely, the best kind of deal the devs could strike with the LCD company is "We will have X units ready before December, with the intention to deliver 4000 units by Y date. Or something similar that allows them to keep their more profitable contracts alive and well should there be any shortages.

This isn't the first time manufacturers screwed with the development of the P. Remember the whole analog nub debacle? Chances are, if there was a contract somewhere in there, it included an exit route of some sort. That way, if they suddenly find it not profitable to sell those specific nubs, they could sever all ties and discontinue them.

So what you are saying is that you doubt their business savvy? Given their past issues with the nub, I have faith that they made sure nothing like that would happen again.

Remember, the LCD *is standard* the nubs were not, your argument is pretty useless.

Any business person could ensure the basic number of units of a generally manufactured unit like the LCD. You compare apples to oranges. The LCD is NOT custom (like the nub), and they make a large number of them (archos). The company producing the LCD is no small company, they dictate terms, those terms go into a contract, the Pandora team agrees to them... anything else is a breach.

Critical thinking goes both ways. Think a bit before knee jerking.

Oh and BTW... NO serious or successful companies (or large ones) have contracts with wiggle room (the LCD manufacturer is a big company, not a small one), because both sides are afraid the wiggle will hurt them. You might need some education on business management.

Edited by BackAssward, 01 November 2008 - 10:50 AM.

[mindlord]

So what you are saying is that you doubt their business savvy? Given their past issues with the nub, I have faith that they made sure nothing like that would happen again.

Remember, the LCD *is standard* the nubs were not, your argument is pretty useless.

Any business person could ensure the basic number of units of a generally manufactured unit like the LCD. You compare apples to oranges. The LCD is NOT custom (like the nub), and they make a large number of them (archos). The company producing the LCD is no small company, they dictate terms, those terms go into a contract, the Pandora team agrees to them... anything else is a breach.

Critical thinking goes both ways. Think a bit before knee jerking.

Oh and BTW... NO serious or successful companies (or large ones) have contracts with wiggle room (the LCD manufacturer is a big company, not a small one), because both sides are afraid the wiggle will hurt them. You might need some education on business management.

The LCD is the single part with the longest lead time. They knew this back on September 30th, and set the ship date at November 30th knowing this to be true. The Pandora Team could not even sign the contract until October 5th (when Pre-orders ended) and they had the money for the parts in the bank.

Because the LCD is being used in another big selling device like the Archos, that makes it all that much harder for the other company. That other company might suffer supply problems as well. Do we know? No we don't. That's life. To expect a parts contract for 4000 units to be fulfilled for a part as delicate and hard to manufacture as the LCD in a matter of just a few weeks, or even a month is unrealistic.

I am quite certain that the Pandora team knows the exact day that the complete order of LCDs is due to arrive, and since that day apparently hasn't come yet, that's why they aren't sweating anything yet, or informing us of any change in the ship date.

[Olexxy]

The 3000 pandora pre-order target was not a sure thing, it happens that the interest for the pandora exceeded their expectations but that was not something they could count on.
And any way, who would sign a firm contract without any assurance that there is real money behind (and by who I mean both pandora team and suppliers) ? For that kind of amount, if the banks/insurances were not ready to cover the contract, they had to get the money before being able to sign anything IMO...

Edited by Olexxy, 01 November 2008 - 12:52 PM.

[Squidge]

Any business person could ensure the basic number of units of a generally manufactured unit like the LCD. You compare apples to oranges. The LCD is NOT custom (like the nub), and they make a large number of them (archos). The company producing the LCD is no small company, they dictate terms, those terms go into a contract, the Pandora team agrees to them... anything else is a breach.

I'm curious as to why you think the LCDs are being bought directly from the manufacturer? Considering that, to most companies, Pandora's order is basically a "one off" rather than a scheduled order, the mfr may not even be interested, and so they are dealing with a distributor for the first batch.

At work, when we buy stuff direct in large quantities, we normally negotiate with the mfr, and the end result is that it is far cheaper to have an expected delivery than a guaranteed one, so unless we have guaranteed a product with customer ourselves, we normally go along the lines of "We would like X by Y. Order should be at least 90% complete by Z.". If your business is making them a tidy profit, they are going to do as you ask, else you go elsewhere. So you could say pretty much all our contracts have "wiggle room".

Besides, contracts and guaranteed orders are only useful in the EU. Since a lot of business is now done outside of the EU, demanding mfr's to ship stated quantities "or we'll sue" is useless. Have you ever tried to sue a chinese or korean company for example, when your company is based in the UK?

[BackAssward]

Any business person could ensure the basic number of units of a generally manufactured unit like the LCD. You compare apples to oranges. The LCD is NOT custom (like the nub), and they make a large number of them (archos). The company producing the LCD is no small company, they dictate terms, those terms go into a contract, the Pandora team agrees to them... anything else is a breach.

I'm curious as to why you think the LCDs are being bought directly from the manufacturer? Considering that, to most companies, Pandora's order is basically a "one off" rather than a scheduled order, the mfr may not even be interested, and so they are dealing with a distributor for the first batch.

At work, when we buy stuff direct in large quantities, we normally negotiate with the mfr, and the end result is that it is far cheaper to have an expected delivery than a guaranteed one, so unless we have guaranteed a product with customer ourselves, we normally go along the lines of "We would like X by Y. Order should be at least 90% complete by Z.". If your business is making them a tidy profit, they are going to do as you ask, else you go elsewhere. So you could say pretty much all our contracts have "wiggle room".

Besides, contracts and guaranteed orders are only useful in the EU. Since a lot of business is now done outside of the EU, demanding mfr's to ship stated quantities "or we'll sue" is useless. Have you ever tried to sue a chinese or korean company for example, when your company is based in the UK?

Well, given y completed by Z, well 600/700 units of 3000 isn't even close to the 80% by z that you put forth by example. The company tha make a crap load of these LCDs, haven't come close to fit your model, nevermind mind.

I feel through experience that my model is much more realistic than yours. However, even your more conservative model isn't met by the reality of things.


No, the current state of this is not supported by the logic of business or manufacturing (given what has been revealed). Simply, there iare more factors going on than you have been informed.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, they just don't think it i business wise to tell you. 80/20%, too much effort to to convince you what they are doing is in your own best interest. It's easier just to do it and give you information redirection.

[carlgeorge]

They'll just be buying from a distributor, 4k units is a small order, the manufacturer wouldn't be interested.
Where I work we won't touch an order that isn't worth so-many-thousands-of-pounds because it isn't worth the paperwork/administration costs. We send people to RS or Farnell to buy small quantities.

[thekingwolf]

Any business person could ensure the basic number of units of a generally manufactured unit like the LCD. You compare apples to oranges. The LCD is NOT custom (like the nub), and they make a large number of them (archos). The company producing the LCD is no small company, they dictate terms, those terms go into a contract, the Pandora team agrees to them... anything else is a breach.

I'm curious as to why you think the LCDs are being bought directly from the manufacturer? Considering that, to most companies, Pandora's order is basically a "one off" rather than a scheduled order, the mfr may not even be interested, and so they are dealing with a distributor for the first batch.

At work, when we buy stuff direct in large quantities, we normally negotiate with the mfr, and the end result is that it is far cheaper to have an expected delivery than a guaranteed one, so unless we have guaranteed a product with customer ourselves, we normally go along the lines of "We would like X by Y. Order should be at least 90% complete by Z.". If your business is making them a tidy profit, they are going to do as you ask, else you go elsewhere. So you could say pretty much all our contracts have "wiggle room".

Besides, contracts and guaranteed orders are only useful in the EU. Since a lot of business is now done outside of the EU, demanding mfr's to ship stated quantities "or we'll sue" is useless. Have you ever tried to sue a chinese or korean company for example, when your company is based in the UK?

Well, given y completed by Z, well 600/700 units of 3000 isn't even close to the 80% by z that you put forth by example. The company tha make a crap load of these LCDs, haven't come close to fit your model, nevermind mind.

I feel through experience that my model is much more realistic than yours. However, even your more conservative model isn't met by the reality of things.


No, the current state of this is not supported by the logic of business or manufacturing (given what has been revealed). Simply, there iare more factors going on than you have been informed.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, they just don't think it i business wise to tell you. 80/20%, too much effort to to convince you what they are doing is in your own best interest. It's easier just to do it and give you information redirection.

You sound as if you know what you are talking about but you must remember one thing and that is more than likely most if not all the parts and labor is being done in China or some part of Asia to keep cost down. Look if we were talking about USA, UK, EU, or many other place then your "model" makes sense. But this is a small production run in Asia we are talking about and I have done it in the past and know that there are many, many, many pains and delays. For a small order and believe me 3000 of anything is small to a Chinese production company delays and other things are going to happen, I would rather have the delays happen as long as the quality is good. I have done wholesale and small scale production from Chinese companies and if there is one thing that I have learned is if it not already made and ready to shipped and need to be produced then more than likely there will be a delay. I recently had a ship date missed by only a week which caused me to miss a convention and I lost between $10000-$20000 in sales because of it but once again it is nothing new 70% of the time things come late from Chinese production companies. Also this "model" with these "contracts" that you talk about mean nothing to the Asian production companies they have your money already before they ship your item and good luck getting your money back. They will try to make it up to you by sending you other items if your items are defective but they will never give you your money back. I just hope the Pandora guys have good agents that they are dealing with because those agents or your contact to the production companies can make a world of difference. LCD production is a small problem it is a massed produced thing now if they have problems with the PCB production or the case production that will be another matter because those are customs items and are a whole other world of hurt. Getting this bad ass item at the end of this month would be awesome, cool, kick ass but I will settle with just getting the item with in the next 2-3 months.

In closing we have a saying here in the USA "Sh*t Happens" and that is what happened here. I can not see wanting to change banks or wanting a delay for LCD but it did happen and they are dealing with it. Now we have to deal with it, do not re-order if your order was canceled or stop crying it is coming we may just have to wait a little bit long or follow a few more steps. I am not directing this last statement to you but to all the people that have lost their minds these past few days.

[Chip]

In closing we have a saying here in the USA "Sh*t Happens" and that is what happened here. I can not see wanting to change banks or wanting a delay for LCD but it did happen and they are dealing with it. Now we have to deal with it, do not re-order if your order was canceled or stop crying it is coming we may just have to wait a little bit long or follow a few more steps. I am not directing this last statement to you but to all the people that have lost their minds these past few days.

And in order to cut down on the obsessing and pointless conjecture, I'm closing this topic. Everybody sit tight. When there is more information, you'll hear it from Craigix. Everybody else is just making stuff up.