276 replies to this topic

[StreaK]

Imho best solution for this is to create hybrid search [ tags + game names and categories ] and hybrid tags + categories like in youtube [ you're adding a video to specified category but you can add additional tags to it .. simple ]. These tags will be included in search as well as game names and categories.

[StreaK]

I've been wondering lately if the app store can eventually take the form of a video game style interface controlled by the game controllers. Not like a video game itself, but like a loadout or options screen within a video game. Either built within a browser or maybe with a local frontend application that communicates with a server.... I just think that would be cool, and consistent with the Pandora's design.

I think its best solution for this. Maybe SDL + C++ CURL extensions could be good solution to do this [ completely independent frontend that dont require web browser running ]

[second exodous]

I'm kinda confused on tags. When I think of tags I just think of keywords that you attach to the game. There aren't really any set tags, it's just what the author sets. If he has a character named Bob then he would put a tag 'Bob' on his game. The app store didn't make the tag 'Bob' the author did so if anyone searches for Bob it comes up in a search.

Categories I see as RPG, FPS, Puzzle, Side Scroller, ect. If you want a Puzzle game with someone named Bob in it you would search Bob within Puzzle. You could also search for Bob in every category, maybe there is a Bob in FPS.

Isn't this what tags are? Whoever makes the app store should set the Categories in stone but not the tags, people should tag their game any way they want.

[StreaK]

Problem wit TAGS are because some people simply dont understand the main purpose of TAGS. Tags are for describe things. We cannot describe game "bob" by putting tag "bob" on it.. its a madness. But if we use tags very carefull we can do it a far better. For example:
a game "Terminator arcade" goes into shoot emu up category BUT with TAGS like: "first person perspective / fps / fpp / touchscreen* / mouse* / usb joy* /"

* - additional info about controls

[Chip]

I'm kinda confused on tags. When I think of tags I just think of keywords that you attach to the game. There aren't really any set tags, it's just what the author sets.

That's one way to do it. Another way is to have a set list of tags that can be attached to a game. That way, you can browse a list of tags rather than having to guess what tags the submitter might have used. A specific list of allowed tags is preferable in a situation like the app store, because anybody can add items. Otherwise you'd end up with some side scrolling shooters tagged with "side scroller", and others with "side-scroller", "side scrolling" and "scrolling shooter".

The only real difference between tags and categories is that a game can have any number of tags, but can only reside in one category. This is why tags are preferable whenever possible.

[StreaK]

Another way is to have a set list of tags that can be attached to a game.

From some point its good to have few good predefined tags [ more virtual categories* / controls used (mouse / usb joy / external screen enabled). You dont need to guess what tag should use in your submission.

* - virtal category like "children", for younger game players [ 6-12 yrs ].

Edited by StreaK, 30 December 2009 - 02:49 PM.

[Awakening]

I'm kinda confused on tags. When I think of tags I just think of keywords that you attach to the game. There aren't really any set tags, it's just what the author sets.

That's one way to do it. Another way is to have a set list of tags that can be attached to a game. That way, you can browse a list of tags rather than having to guess what tags the submitter might have used. A specific list of allowed tags is preferable in a situation like the app store, because anybody can add items. Otherwise you'd end up with some side scrolling shooters tagged with "side scroller", and others with "side-scroller", "side scrolling" and "scrolling shooter".

The only real difference between tags and categories is that a game can have any number of tags, but can only reside in one category. This is why tags are preferable whenever possible.

Exactly what I'm after, and thanks for explaining the problems with user defined tags

Predefined tags are so effective that categories are not needed, because the categories are tags too. That way games can belong to multiple categories. Like how would you categorize a game like System Shock 2, RPG or FPS?

[StreaK]

Like how would you categorize a game like System Shock 2, RPG or FPS?

Shoot em Up** category with predefined virtual tags "FPS / FPP / mouse / touchscreen / RPG / adventure / Mature* " and user-defined tags like "cyberpunk / post-nuclear / sci fi / zombies / mutants"

* because of gore / blood and other mature things

** SS goes to shootemup up than rpg, because its primary shootemup with adjustable RPG elements

If we use hybrid category search and tags search forms we can fully use all the power of each.

category will be better for people that know what they like [ shootem ups / rpg genre ] and tag search will be better to find specific genre [ rpg / wild west / zombies and naked babes.. ]

Edited by StreaK, 30 December 2009 - 03:16 PM.

[Awakening]

Like how would you categorize a game like System Shock 2, RPG or FPS?

Shoot em Up** category with predefined virtual tags "FPS / FPP / mouse / touchscreen / RPG / adventure / Mature* " and user-defined tags like "cyberpunk / post-nuclear / sci fi / zombies / mutants"

* because of gore / blood and other mature things

** SS goes to shootemup up than rpg, because its primary shootemup with adjustable RPG elements

If we use hybrid category search and tags search forms we can fully use all the power of each.

category will be better for people that know what they like [ shootem ups / rpg genre ] and tag search will be better to find specific genre [ rpg / wild west / zombies and naked babes.. ]

The problem with categories is that people tend to define games differently. I would agree that SS2 is mainly a shooter but I would also define it as an RPG and an adventure because it has strong elements of both. Some call the Zelda games RPGs but I believe the correct term would be action adventure. I would definitely say the Zelda games are mainly adventure games but also action games, not RPGs at all.

[Chip]

The whole point of tags is that once you have them, you don't need categories. There's nothing to be gained by having both.

[StreaK]

I have other point of view. Just think about this situation:

There is +50 ppl uploading files to the repository/app store that have no idea what tags should add to own submissions and instead of creating a lot of good tagged apps they're create mess. Other users that want to search something by tags finds that tags are not accurate because tags are wrong added. In this situation categories saves the day..

You'll know what i mean if you'll search thru tags "adventure" and find that search engine found +1000 files, because every game is adventure [ no matter its mario or ishar 3 ].

Edited by StreaK, 30 December 2009 - 04:08 PM.

[Chip]

If somebody can't figure out tags, what are the chances that they can figure out categories? You can't base everything around the lowest common denominator.

There are ways to allow users (not just submitters) to apply tags as well. TheMovieDB.org is a good example of a flexible tagging system. Look at Transformers or The Dark Knight for example. They use both pre-defined tags for genre categories, and user-submitted tags for plot themes. Anybody can apply tags of either type. The category tags have numbers next to them, indicating how many users applied those tags. For the anything-goes plot tags, they employ an awesomebar-esque autosearch feature, so that if you want to add a tag, it will show matching tags as you type. This helps eliminate the problem I mentioned above with several similar tags with slightly different spellings.

[second exodous]

I'm kinda confused on tags. When I think of tags I just think of keywords that you attach to the game. There aren't really any set tags, it's just what the author sets.

That's one way to do it. Another way is to have a set list of tags that can be attached to a game. That way, you can browse a list of tags rather than having to guess what tags the submitter might have used. A specific list of allowed tags is preferable in a situation like the app store, because anybody can add items. Otherwise you'd end up with some side scrolling shooters tagged with "side scroller", and others with "side-scroller", "side scrolling" and "scrolling shooter".

The only real difference between tags and categories is that a game can have any number of tags, but can only reside in one category. This is why tags are preferable whenever possible.

Ahh, I see where I was getting confused now. Maybe to get rid of the problem that you mentioned above, side-scroller/side scrolling/scrolling shooter, is when someone goes to tag a game it says suggest tags based on the ones you wrote and you select the ones that work the best. Then, if there is a tag you want to use and no suggestions come up you can tag it with that unique tag and that would be reviewed by an app store admin, or whoever, before it goes into affect. That would keep all those redundant tags out.

You also mentioned above that you don't think both are needed and I think if both are used it would be useful if done correctly.

[StreaK]

If somebody can't figure out tags, what are the chances that they can figure out categories? You can't base everything around the lowest common denominator.

If you have basic categories like rpg / shootem up or even puzzle you cant really go wrong with this, but with +25 [ or more ] tags you can . On basic level of perception you cannot put system shock into puzzle category... but you can add additional tags like +logical +puzzle [ that matched to game ] and if somebody tries to find something like puzzle games then will get system shock , which is really lol..

If you add a 2 layer search method to search engine in app store
1 method -> category search and then after
2 method -> tags search, you will get really excellent matching.
[ this 2layer method is hard to implement, but imho will be excellent ]

anyway, its only my vision. If someone creates different category or tags search in appstore - i dont mind as long it will be usable for common, average joe..

Edited by StreaK, 30 December 2009 - 04:54 PM.

[Chip]

You also mentioned above that you don't think both are needed and I think if both are used it would be useful if done correctly.

If you have tags, then categories are redundant. What's the point of an "Action RPG" category if you can just apply an "Action RPG" tag to a game? If you prefer to browse rather than search, there's nothing preventing a browseable list of tags. You can also sort pre-defined tags into categories to make this easier. See the TMDB examples I posted above to see how it works.

If you want to get clever about it, you can even simulate the tree structure that most category systems use. Start with a list of all tags. When a user clicks on a tag, show only tags that co-exist in entries with the clicked tag. Continue until you narrow it down to the handful of games you want. Then there's the ability to do inclusive or exclusive searches with multiple tags, or tags plus description text search terms.

Everything is switching to tags, and there are lots of good reasons for that.