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Transfers... Tranzfers..


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#316 gibberish

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 10:57 AM

this is getting ridiculous. as much as i want this thing to succeed, if we havent had a proper explanation and if things havent moved forward significantly in 1 weeks time im getting my refund. i know its a small team but the communication between them and us is absolutely appauling.

#317 NickLoTurco

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 11:36 AM

It would seem that they don't in fact have the money to start production and we may have been lied to. Can't help but wonder if the delays have been lies aswell and we're being blagged, I'm good at blagging and I can spot it a mile off. Sorry if I keep posting negative comments on here but it's getting me down how the communication seems to be dwindling away.

#318 lobski

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:18 PM

So, what happens to us credit card guys?

#319 weirdocollector

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:20 PM

QUOTE(todd @ Jan 18 2009, 04:35 AM) View Post

QUOTE(Moxie @ Jan 17 2009, 06:35 PM) View Post

You don't preorder a non-existing, not yet finished product with protection. That is incompatible terms.
...
In something like this - preordering a nonexisting item from an enthusiast operation - there is always the chance that it'll all come to nothing. That is always the risk. That is why the banks won't do the CC thing (and they really shouldn't) - this risk is something you, the preorderer, has to take.


Well spoken.

Thank you too, for relating that back to the credit card companies: of course they don't want to be on the hook for this. That certainly seems a likely explanation for these bizarro games they're playing with us.

MS & Apple are all about consumer protection. "Trusted computing", DRM, bricked iPhones, "Windows Genuine Advantage"... all in a shiny case that comes in a pretty box. If that's your thing. Guaranteed delivery date!

I'm excited about the OpenPandora as an alternative to a frighteningly homogeneous ecosystem of mega-corp controlled computers and, especially, mobile hardware. I'm excited by the thought that OpenPandora the company, or a spiritual descendant thereof, could challenge the status-quo of corporate interests and provide the hardware (and the privacy) that many of us desire. I want to support the OpenPandora simply for political and philosophical reasons -- even if the hardware was to turn out lousy and there never was a second batch.

If no good alternatives show up, I guess a $40 EFT fee will be, for me, part of the cost of supporting this new and somewhat counter-cultural venture. It's obvious the dev's had had more than their fair share of unexpected costs and problems arising.

--Todd


Couldn't have said it better...

#320 Asmo

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:21 PM

QUOTE(rmm21 @ Jan 17 2009, 12:24 AM) View Post
They refunded the first time didn't they?



Actually no they didn't, it's been their stated claim all along that it was the bank that did the refunds without any input or direction from OP.


QUOTE(Monk @ Jan 17 2009, 09:01 AM) View Post


If I cancel, it won't be soley because of OpenPandora's - rather odd - behaviour, it will be because of the apparent cheerleading accompanying them.



^ +1000!

QUOTE(Racemaniac @ Jan 17 2009, 09:59 AM) View Post
i'm seriously wondering how you americans make deals over the internet. can you pay person to person with credit cards???



Of course you can - with PayPal for one, and there are other options.

QUOTE(TaG @ Jan 17 2009, 11:56 AM) View Post



@truekaiser: there is no contract any longer between OP ltd and someone who has been refunded. The refund effectively cancelled that contract. For your new contract, you cannot complain about lack of payment method.




Actually that's not strictly the case - by OP's own statements to that effect, the refunds were not at their behest, and the original terms of sale (ie 'contract' of sale) cannot be terminated by a third party. Subsequent communications about 'keeping your place in line' and not losing the money lost in the Forex fiasco pretty much imply that the original 'contract' is still in place. Unless the buyer withdraws.

#321 jake37

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:34 PM

Hey Craig, I'm writing this here because PM'ing doesn't work.

I hope you're listening. I'm also afraid you aren't.

I'm seriously wondering why you keep posting to meaningless threads about avatars and grammar instead of calming down the crowd at the pinned thread that you yourself started.

I can't help being worried about the general state of affairs, with you stirring a dangerous potion and then walking away and letting the pot overboil.


#322 Peter R

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:51 PM

QUOTE(NickLoTurco @ Jan 18 2009, 11:36 AM) View Post

It would seem that they don't in fact have the money to start production and we may have been lied to. Can't help but wonder if the delays have been lies aswell and we're being blagged, I'm good at blagging and I can spot it a mile off. Sorry if I keep posting negative comments on here but it's getting me down how the communication seems to be dwindling away.

If only they had gone on Dragons Den like I suggested ph34r.gif

#323 conso

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 01:31 PM

QUOTE(jake37 @ Jan 18 2009, 01:34 PM) View Post

Hey Craig, I'm writing this here because PM'ing doesn't work.

I hope you're listening. I'm also afraid you aren't.

I'm seriously wondering why you keep posting to meaningless threads about avatars and grammar instead of calming down the crowd at the pinned thread that you yourself started.

I can't help being worried about the general state of affairs, with you stirring a dangerous potion and then walking away and letting the pot overboil.


Isn't it obvious? He's waiting for good news about production before he will answer here. I'd do the same if good news are in reach.

#324 White Demon

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 01:56 PM

With regards to chip's post, do they only have enough funds to produce the 2000-odd Ps for people who have paid by bank transfer/google checkout or are they able to produce the full 4000?

If the latter is true, then why not re-open CC orders after all units are made for those who previously pre-ordered but have not been able to pay, with a limit of, say 2-3 weeks to pay for it. When they pay they are sent their originally promised unit, if they don't pay in those 2-3 weeks, once that time limit is up, the remaining unclaimed P's can be regarded as 'in stock' items to be sold to whoever orders it.

If the former is true and they can only produce 2000 units, while the gift certificate option could be a way around the 30-day thing, since everyone gets what they pay for (a gift certificate) straight away, it may be more productive for Craig & co to just get on and release as many as they can, as every day they spend looking for other options to pay by is another day that final production is delayed.

#325 stustaff

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 02:01 PM

QUOTE(conso @ Jan 18 2009, 01:31 PM) View Post


Isn't it obvious? He's waiting for good news about production before he will answer here. I'd do the same if good news are in reach.


obvious? youd do the same...personally I think waiting and saying nothing after dropping a bombshell like this seems the worst possible course of action.

I think it would make more sense to post a statement of intent something along the lines of.

'We are struggling to find a way to get CC payments accepted, we will continue looking. However this may mean that those who pay by BT jump ahead of those unable to pay so far by CC. Those who reserved by CC are still guarenteed their pandora however if we cant get the money it may mean more of a delay than if your willing to pay by bank transfer! for details of how to pay by BT go here (link).
The current progress situation in terms of manafacture is - BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Thankyou for your patiece and once again we apologise for these problems we are doing our best to make everyone happy and to get the first pandoras shipped.'

that would seem proffesional and be more useful than the complete silence on the subject we have received so far.
Im no expert but seems obvious to me?


#326 TaG

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 02:17 PM

That's a bit radical stustaff. You can't go saying things like that here. Just because that is what everybody else would do. wink.gif Anyway, it would be good if OP did repeat stustaff's words as they are far better than has ben said so far.

Did I mention how fucking depressing this all is? I did? Well it hasn't improved any.


#327 Mithrildor

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE(gibberish @ Jan 18 2009, 11:57 AM) View Post

this is getting ridiculous. as much as i want this thing to succeed, if we havent had a proper explanation and if things havent moved forward significantly in 1 weeks time im getting my refund. i know its a small team but the communication between them and us is absolutely appauling.


Well just wait till things get sorted out. I wanted to stop my pandora story to when they told us about the refunds. I thought this was just a sacam. But I did it and my money isnt stolen yet.

#328 Daryoon

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 02:55 PM

Guys, I want this to happen as much as the next guy, but the pissing on the Bank is also getting a little bit old. The Bank did not reverse refund these orders for no reason. Anyone who works in a legal profession or banking (or a combination of the two) knows this.

I am also not sure why we are so implicitly happy to lay blame at the feet of the Bank and wholly allow OP off the hook. Perhaps blame should be shared between the two, but we need to be honest: OP has not been straightforward on MANY things (i.e. we are fully funded and don't need preorders to build the first batch), etc.

From experience, I would guess the most likely scenario relative to the Bank is this: Craigix/OP has an account with the Bank. Craigix/OP has no ill intent or intent to deceive. HOWEVER, rather than doing what most businesses would do (particularly on a start-up project likely to see a large and sudden infusion of cash), OP does not communicate with the Bank (and particularly a commercial loan officer) about their business, their business plan, the amount and size of the funds about to hit and WHERE (i.e. all over the world) the money is going to come from.

Quite simply, Craigix/OP just thought/assumed they could use their normal everyday account without following the common-sensical pre-steps for the project.

Now, if OP would have been obtaining a loan from the Bank for the project, the Bank would have been advised of all of this advance. Since they were not going that route, they would have needed to actively and affirmatively advise the Bank of same in advance to get clearance/approval.

Now, there are a couple of possibilities. OP are business noobs and they didn't think to do the foregoing. Or, they thought about the foregoing but were aware they could not produce a product in a set time, etc which would lead the Bank to reject allowing them to do it (just like paypal, et al are rejecting for the same reason) ... so they didn't say anything and just did it anyway and hoped it would fly.

In other words, they flung the risk on their customers. It didn't fly. They asked the customers to bear the risk under this ongoing and now tiring explanation of "You are not buying a completed product, you know the risk, etc etc).

The FOREGOING is a more plausible scenario than the Bank simply decided to refund and be asses. The Banks are generally cognizant, particularly in these markets, of potential liability to consumers. The Bank, right, wrong or otherwise, would not have done what it did just for the sake of it.

I believe what the customers would like, at this point, is some honesty. Many of us, whether as long time lurkers who had GP32s, 2Xs, etc, would continue to support the project even if things looked shitty. We just want honesty.

BUT: (1) We are tired of being lied too (We have money to build all of the units, it's all the Bank's fault, etc); (2) We are tired of being told the risk is all ours; (3) We are tired of being told how to do things in a half-ass manner because OP decides to gamble and then being told it was our fault for LISTENING AND DOING what we are told; and (3) although minute, I am tired of being told that I am not receiving refund and other emails because of some issue on my side (I have no issues getting email, I had no issues getting my confirmation email and other emails from Pandora. If I didn't get an email, you likely didn't send it).

Now, maybe someone should add this to the FAQ instead of the constant references to how we should suck it up, WE took the risk (not OP).


#329 Crunchwrap

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 03:41 PM

QUOTE(Daryoon @ Jan 18 2009, 09:55 AM) View Post

BUT: (1) We are tired of being lied too (We have money to build all of the units, it's all the Bank's fault, etc); (2) We are tired of being told the risk is all ours; (3) We are tired of being told how to do things in a half-ass manner because OP decides to gamble and then being told it was our fault for LISTENING AND DOING what we are told; and (3) although minute, I am tired of being told that I am not receiving refund and other emails because of some issue on my side (I have no issues getting email, I had no issues getting my confirmation email and other emails from Pandora. If I didn't get an email, you likely didn't send it).

Now, maybe someone should add this to the FAQ instead of the constant references to how we should suck it up, WE took the risk (not OP).

(1) You are not being lied to. Where did you even get this from? (2) The people telling you that the risk is all yours are not the OP team, you're being told by preorderers. (3) No one ever blamed preorderers, and (3 - learn to number) if there is an issue on your side it then the issue is probably with your bank (hence your side). It's not a matter of not being able to receive emails.

Also, the FAQ doesn't say anywhere that preorderers should suck it up, but you did take a risk in investing in an incomplete product.

#330 mcqfesijiba2

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 04:15 PM

Honestly, at this point, I don't care about any lies, bank stupidity, poor communication, poor decisions, etc that may or may not have happened or by whom. I basically want the device I paid for (or tried to lol) and I still think the end product will be worth purchasing and that ultimately Craig and the team want to do this right. Sometimes, there's no gain without a little bit of pain.

I may bite the bullet and give the recommended solution, tranzfers.com, a look soon. All the ethnocentrism in here about international bank transfers aside, they just aren't a good solution through our banks in the US. Hopefully karma will all even out and we'll get some better product stability than some commercial products have had in the past. PS2 Disk Read Errors, XBox360 RROD, etc. I eventually suffered the former beyond warranty and hoping to avoid the latter on my less than a month old 360 (Falcon chipset)