I know that this has been proposed many times before, but nothing ever seems to come of it.
I'm talking about setting some basic standards/guidelines for developers to follow, which will make it easier for users to use the programs that they create.
I ask this question again today because of the news on this thread here!
It will be an absolute nightmare when testing all these new programs, if all these developers were to set their buttons up differently.

Surely it shouldn't be too hard todo & it would go a long way to making the system more user friendly.

Examples:
L+R+start = quit program
L+R+select = quit to programs main menu
L+R+volume down = save to save state
L+R+volume up = load from save state

I know that it will be more complicated for such things as the Amiga/ST emulators etc., but it would go a long way to making new homebrew programs less complicated.

Anyway bring on the feedback/flames.. Cheers

Every homebrew game uses the controls differently, because they're not made with a cookie cutter. As long as they're intuitive such as

Volup/Voldown - adjust sound volume
Start - begin, pause, resume game
L+R or Select - quit, exit

everything is fine in my book.

- Alex

HI , we have been talking about this in www.gp32spain.com : thread here.

Maybe we can talk about this there. I mean we (all) need to agree with something, cause is a nightmare using diferent emulators with different combinations to go to the menu...

Well, I have to do stuff now (the boss is looking at me xDD), cheers mates!

I agree with the points put forward. It only makes sense this will help make things more accessible to all, unlike having hold down right shoulder button press start, hold B then press A then left shoulder button and volume up and down at the same time to exit. (well not to that extreme but you get the idea )

Controls should be fully configurable by the user, it would save all these problems in the first place ...

true - but a standard layout would be nice - I demo the gp2x often at work to people and vainly hit certain key combos that do nothing on one emulator and shuts down another... doesn't look good I'm afraid.

Of course many devs' attitudes I would think (I know mine is for software I do at work) are that they code the things and so they decide which keys do what - each prob thinks their method is intuitive - - which I guess is fair enough.

Who is prominent and admired enough in the scene to decide the default?

The trouble with that though, is that it could get quite confusing when there are added options for the programs main menu, emulators bios setting etc. Kind of like when you buy a new joystick for the PC & then have to spend an entire day writing down the different control settings for all the different programs before entering them into the joysticks software.
I agree that all the normal user buttons should be selectable, but the more advanced one's would save a lot of hassle if they were static.

@JimmySlam - Cheers for the link Jimmy. It should be something that is decided between all the different sites.. definetly. Unfortunatly I don't understand Spanish, but I'll check out the forum using a translation engine to hopefully get some new ideas & to share my own with you guy's.
The 2x's community seems to be really fragmented at the moment due to the location/language barrier. Maybe we can find a way to improve that too



Who say's it has to be just one person kevcal?
Maybe a wiki entry or something can be set up & a couple of people from each of the 2x's communities from different countries can all get their heads together for a solution. It would be nice if GPH were to get involved with something like this too

I haven't had problems with any of the programs before...

I do tend to remember the different combos of buttons for the different programs, but I do think a standard is a good idea.

Letting the user map their own buttons is also a good idea. but as previously mentioned, maybe some system specific things like VOL+ and VOL- for volume and Start for pause, should be left alone.

well i did, squidge snes and gnuboy for example. or that one of the NES too i think.

I would like that the perfect way to do this is like dr MD, for me, is perfect. Pressing select, u go to a very detailed menu and you do what ever you want. press B to advance , X to cancel. With that I would be happy.

What do you think people?

Unfortunatly this won't work with the Snes emu I don't think, as the Snes seems to use the select button in games a hell of a lot. That's why I suggested L+R shoulder buttons as well. Nobody can really hit all them 3 buttons at the same time by accident.
Press B to advance , X to cancel should be fine though in menu's

I have a suggestion that may be easier to push as a standard.

This problem is the same one that faced DOS game programmers in the 1980s. (Actually, DOS programmers of all stripes.) The solution which took hold was that everyone agreed on one thing -- F1 = help. Almost universally, if you were lost in a game, pressing F1 would pause the game and bring up a help screen telling you the keyboard commands.

For the GP2X, I propose that [LeftShoulder+JoystickClick] be the universal Help command. It's probably unused in most games, and not a difficult combination to do.

I think that developers are trying to get away from using the stick press though, as people are trying out joypad mods on the 2x. This a sometimes makes the joypress useless.
It would also be too easy to hit those button combo's while playing the games

I think the best solution is letting the user customize the controls - something like a standard input library with built in configuration capability (or externally by an associated program) could make this more painless for developers, but I really think the key is letting the user change stuff themselves.

What about:

If we play those opitons with volume up and down, that is something that gp2x and is not used in other game systems.

I guess this would be a place to throw in my take on the diversity of UI's. It's often dissapointing to use such a wide variety of different menus. For example, SquidgeSNES compared to FCE is completely different, and it's often frustrating to play on a machine with diverse UIs. The problem is, it all looks so different, and ofen some are overly flashy (e.g. DrMDx's background). If menus could stay as simple as Reesy's DrMDx menu, but not overly flashy, it would be fantastic. It'd be difficult to enforce something like that compared to controls, but it would make the GP2X more appealing.

Of course, that could be me being picky.

The main reason why we are discouraged from using the stick push is fear that it will wear out... Most of the Dpad mods are finding way to keep the push button.

My opinion is, if it wasn't supposed to be used it wouldn't be there on the GP2X in the first place.
My other oppinion is if you didn't keep a way to press the button on your Dpad mod.. then it's your own stupid fault.

Exactly, that would solve everything....

I do agree!

Yeh.. but it would still be very useful if most of the programs came with the same settings to begin with. It would be a complete pain to have to set up every key combo for every single program you download before useing wouldn't it? People could always change them if need be anyway.
I'm not argueing against you guy's, as it's all relevant anyway:
1) Make all key's configurable with a universal framework.
2) Design a standard universal key setup that will work with at least 90% of programs straight of the bat.

The first impression of an application is so damn important both graphic wise as usebility wise.

I definitely agree that we should try to keep a standard for functionality of the keys.

Also as someone mentioned before in this thread, keep the menu's simple, use as little different colors or just one shade (check http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html) and also use one font type. Your menu's just look a lot more proffesional.

And using hardcoded paths.... that's unforgivable. I have high regards for emulator programmers I think it's one of the hardest coding there is. So I'm so impressed when a coder posts about the latest emulater he has released, and i think 'wow I'm so impressed with this guy that he was able to emulate this-and-that computer' only to realize that you can only install it in a certain directory, and the roms on another exotic location. It's just a bit... you know...stupid. And i know it's not a big deal. Still lot's of people who downloaded the application get the're ass kicked by being told on all the forums to RTF.txt .

BTW i'm glad that the gp2x doesn't have a keyboard, otherwise we'll be all starting our application with a quizillion commandline parameters. Which would make the gp2x totally unintresting other than the programmers themselves.

Well.. eh.. what i'm just trying to say was that a first impression is more important than many realize.

just my 2 cts

IMO it should be whatever is easier for the developer.. i fully agree with you though

what about:

We can start by adding all possible needed functions, for example the quit game, pause emu, save state, load state... etc all in one place, a text file for an example, each emu should check whatever functions of those it can implement, and load the combination from that text file, this text file can be written using a simple app, and might (in future updates) include several combinations for one function depending on what emu are we using, this way one can map buttons to whatever form he likes, and then follow a standard he makes, so instead of making a standard of combinations, we should make a standard editable settings file and its api that all emus can use.

What do u guys think? in case this wasn't clear I will gladly explain more.

Persoanlly, I like diversity..

Edit: Not as much as I like making typos though.

I think I know what your on about sehs33
Got to keep in mind though, that the more advanced emulators with software keyboards etc. will need a different config file than the normal one. Same could be said for things like RPG's maybe?

Here's a first draft of the standard button combo's I was thinking of for anyone that's interested. Think that I've covered all the basics, but give me a shout if I've missed any ..

In Menu:
Directions = up,down,left & right.
B = Select.
X = De-select.
R= Navigate forward/next page/next track.
L= Navigate back/prev page/prev track.
Start = Opens a Quit dialogue, with an option to quit program or cancel the quit command.
Select = Programs main/universal options.
L+VolumeUp = Overclock program.
L+VolumeDown = Underclock program.
L+R = Return to the game in progress.
Joybutton+VolumeClick = Take screenshot.

In Game:
Directions = up,down,left & right.
B,X,A,Y,L,R,Start,Select,VolumeUp & VolumeDown = Whatevers best for the program.
L+R+Start = Opens a Quit dialogue, with an option to quit program or cancel the quit command.
L+R+Select = Pauses the game & goes to the main menu.
L+R+VolumeUp = Load game from save state.
L+R+VolumeDown = Save game to save state.
L+R+VolumeClick = Emulators Bios settings/in game options.
L+VolumeUp = Overclock game in progress.
L+VolumeDown = Underclock game in progress.
R+VolumeUp = Change screen orientation.
R+VolumeDown = Activate/deactivate screen scale or stretch.
VolumeClick = Universal pause/un-pause (rather than using different buttons for different systems -pauses the entire program & not just the game/level).
Joybutton+VolumeClick = Take screenshot.

In Options/Bios menu's:
Directions = up,down,left & right.
B = Select.
X = De-select.
R= Navigate forward/next page/next track.
L= Navigate back/prev page/prev track.
Start = Opens a Quit dialogue, with an option to quit program or cancel the quit command.
L+R = Return to the game in progress or main menu (depending if the options menu is navigated into from ingame or the main menu).
Joybutton+VolumeClick = Take screenshot.

p.s Would be nice if some dev's would comment on these, as it's mostly your opinions that matter at the end of the day

***EDIT***
Updated the list with..
R+VolumeUp = Change screen orientation.
R+VolumeDown = Activate/deactivate screen scale or stretch.
Joybutton+VolumeClick = Take screenshot.
R= Navigate forward/next page/next track.
L= Navigate back/prev page/prev track.
Start = Opens a Quit dialogue, with an option to quit program or cancel the quit command.
L+R+Select = Pauses the game & goes to the main menu.
L+R+Start = Opens a Quit dialogue, with an option to quit program or cancel the quit command.

I don't care ... I adapt as needed. It would be great if that damn joystick-center-push thing is never used again though; my only 'gripe'

Ah.. cheers for clearing that up PokeParadox.

I know a lot of people are wanting the option to listen to MP3's while they game.
The joybutton, could be a good way of controlling the background music player if used with the right button combo's. This would keep it's usefullness, while making sure that it doesn't get over used or pressed too hard.

Joybutton+VolumeUp = Mp3 volume up.
Joybutton+VolumeDown = Mp3 volume down.
Joybutton+Start = Mp3 next track on playlist.
Joybutton+Select = Mp3 prev track on playlist.
Joybutton+VolumeClick = Mp3 pause/stop/mute????

I actually find myself avoiding certain emulators because I can't remember what the key combination is to exit their app. I end up with a billion save states as a consequence. After a few failed tries, I typically just turn the whole system off.

I also fear showing people the GP2X for this very reason.

Why does there have to be a key combination for exiting an app? Can't they just put the option in a menu?

I suppose they could. I'm just lazy that way

***EDIT***
Just a rough dreft remember & the dev's mght not even want to use it. I just thought that the key combo was a little faster than scrolling through the menu.

Yeh.. I've got quite a few people who enjoy playing the games on mine, but as soon as it comes time to start a new emulator/program or game they just pass it straight back to me.

Come on, it's not THAT hard..

Try telling that to my 7 year old neice

If one of my freinds is playing on an emulator & decide that they want to try another one, I can't remember the key combo's etc. for them to even get out of the emulator they are using. I can do it myself, but I do it on auto pilot after I've used the emulator a couple of times & I don't know the combo's Off the top of my head to tell them.
I pretty much do what TelcoLou does & just adapt.

***EDIT***
Besides there are other reasons for having standard key combo's.
It will also make it easier to test out & use non-English written programs made for the 2x.
Same goes for non-English reading people who want to test out English software.
That for me is probably the best reason that I can think of to use them

The only thing that drives me nuts is the programs that have exit mapped to start. That just makes absolutely no sense. When playing console games start is used for...ummm....starting

Well, there should be a way to be allowed to configure something else other than joystick press. It should NOT be a requirement. It does wear out the pivot point of the stick sooner and yes it makes joypad mods much more complicated. Adding another switch to pad mods adds more wires and requires a separate mount for it.

I have been using MAME using L+R+select and I actually like that much better for exiting than the joypress. The joypress is mostly only "useful" for menus anyway as if you tied a game control to it you would be hitting it accidentally while playing anyway. It should not be required, it really doesn't add much.

Another thing that should be added is that 2 ordinals should give a diagonal. This is for pad mods. Since the default stick cannot hit 2 ordinals at once, and the joypad can't hit that in-between joystick diagonal it can be hard coded at all times as one scheme has no effect on the other.

Good point DaveC.
It would be silly not to add it, so consider it done

It has been discussed and documented in the wiki for a long time.

http://wiki.gp2x.org/wiki/Common_User_Inte...Recommendations

One of the first things that console manufacturers do and strictly enforce is the adherence to a set of rules. Sony calls these TRC (Technical Requirements Checklist), Microsoft call these TCR (Technical Certification Requirements) and Nintendo call them Lotcheck. One set of these rules is for the user interface and what each button does. It is because of these user interface rules that someone can start a new game and know how to use the menus.

However, as a community, everyone wants something different so nothing gets decided. It's a fact of life that design by committee does not work. I've been developing games for long enough to have experienced this first hand. Unfortunately in this community people who play emulators speak the loudest and thus emulators have an undue influence over everything else.

Emulators should also fall under these rules, but only for the user interface outside of the games they are emulating. It should not matter which system the particular emulator is emulating. The emulator is running on the GP2X so it should conform to the rules regarding the user interface on the GP2X. The game being emulated will use whatever rules were in force for that particular system at the time, and that should have no influence on the user interface used for the emulator's own menus.

Because there is no one person or group who can make a binding decision on these matters, this issue will just keep going and going without a resolution.

This could be another argument for a common input library, as well as ensuring that USB connected joysticks or even more exotic button style input devices could even be backwards supported in apps created prior to their common use. The app would just have to enumerate its different input actions, and the library could be made to take care of the rest. A PC compiled version could even simplify development by making it one less thing that a programmer has to treat differently for testing.

DaveC, I agree that it should be remappable... I just think that not using it at all is silly. I also think it makes a good "function key" since it is not hammered all the time (like in shmups with no autofire), and as you said, it doesn't really serve too much purpose in a game.

Conclusion, maybe the commands to exit, etc. should be standard, with a remappable function key?

Hey Tripmonkey_uk:

I answered in gp32spain have a look

Ah, we agree on something. Yes, that drives me nuts, too. I go and get all my options set in some emulator and I hit start and .. "guess what, jerk, you lost all your settings. Now set me up again, I don't have all day!"

Another thing I'd like is if apps never required the stick-push to quit. My machine has no stick push function anymore due to the d-pad and I don't really want to hack together a button that won't look right anyway. Gngeo2x fixed that recently, I'm extremely grateful.

The start button is used to exit (return to the start menu) by the movie player, audio player, e-book reader etc.

Why should games not be consistent with this?

No cos it's a stupid use in the real menu too...
And a lot of people are using gMenu2X nowadays anyway.

Well the thing of the DPad would be used for the mp3 player. Is usefull but no esential.

I said in gp32spain:

Answering to tripmonkeys standards.

When you say the thing of the MP3 player, if you realise the SELECT and START buttons have the simbols of PLAY and STOP so, we should use that, it will be easier really.

And next song could be
JoyPad+ R (next song).
JoyPad+ L (prev song).

So for the background MP3 Player:

Stop = Pad + Select.
Play = Pad + Start.
NextSong = Pad + R.
PrevSong = Pad + L.
UpVolume = Pad + VolUp.
DownVolume = Pad + VolDown.

Cheers!

Sorry to not respond sooner jimmy, but I was reading over some guidlines that have already been worked on here! Is there anything like this already on the spanish or german wiki's I wonder?

Thanks for pointing out the symbols on the start & select buttons.. never noticed them before for some reason??
Unfortunatly the combo's that you suggested..
"And next song could be
JoyPad+ R (next song).
JoyPad+ L (prev song)."
Won't work that well. A lot of people hit the joybutton by accident while playing & it would be too easy in games to hit these buttons without meaning to
Cheers for pointing out the symbols anyway though & it would be nice to find someway to keep them consistant, even if the background mp3 player isn't really that important to most people.

p.s I answered on the Spanish site too Jimmy

I am one of the few who do not use emulators so I'm not sure how different their controls are, but I believe the only way this effort is going to bear fruit is if the makers of the most popular emulators get together and decide on interface standards and release versions that comply with those standards. That would force the rest of us to fall into line because users (who use emulators more than anything) will expect certain behaviors. Right now, we have suggestions on the wiki (which are weak), we have new suggestions popping up occasionally like in this thread (which are usually incompatible with each other), and we have control uses in the default menu (which is used by at least 95% of gp2x users.... the GMenu2x might be nice but cumulative download total for all versions is about 1000 which amounts to a small minority of gp2x users).

So, if the makers of MAMEGP2x, DrMDx, GNGeo2x, SquidgeSNES and SNES9x (popularity of those just taken from the "most downloads" area of archive.gp2x.de) could work together on common control usage, that would convince me to use their scheme. As a developer, I don't see a compelling reason right now to use any of the competing standards as doing so is of marginal benefit to users since nobody is used to any of them except to an extent the in-built menu.

Well the thing is if u are playing to a game that can cause troubles with the combo pad+R or pad+L , dont start the mp3 player (seriously). I dont find it a bad thing, really. I mean we cant make a standard to work with everything but at the moment it is very close to be a great standard to follow.
I still think about the pad+R or L for next and prev song is go to have it. Personally I hardly ever click the pad, and is less probable that I am going to press R or L at the same time. Is very very unlikely...

What do you think?

Cheers.

I answered in both xD. lets do answer both places so everyone knows what is going on.

Yep.. that's pretty much the nail on the head there Dzz
I've started to read through all the emulator readme's just to make sure that they will all be compatible with the suggested list that I made. If the developers want to use it, they are always welcome to it then.
Already added..
R+VolumeUp = Change screen orientation.
R+VolumeDown = Activate/deactivate screen scale or stretch.
To make it more compatible/useful with Mame
Joybutton+VolumeClick = Take screenshot.
To make it easier for developers to show off their work.


I think that we should leave the background mp3 controls out of it for now Jimmy. It's not like the software's set up to use it fully yet anyway


I'm starting to think that it might be a good idea to set up a new site, where people from all the different countries can agree on setting standards etc. kinda like a central hub for unification.
Could go a long way to uniting the different 2x communities & speeding up development etc.

well the wiki is meant to be for that but, is no where like a forum where we can discuss the standards.

Well that is only for archive.gp2x.de downloads, sourceforge cumulative downloads are 2500+ and the files are hosted on other sites too.
But it doesn't make a big difference, I guess we are still a minority

Back on topic...
I also am a bit frustrated with the actual state of things, but I can live with it.
I think the best would be for alla emulator to use a menu like drmd and to adhere to a standard for the key-combo to launch that menu, but I know that it's not an easy task...