There's a little backstory, but bare with me. I hope this is something that will interest many people.

Hi, I'm new to this forum, but not so new to the GP2X. I produce an online news show (Me and my gf make it) called 'Gaming News With Lady Mainframe',

and a short while ago we did a little story on the GP2X.
Ever since I first did my research on it I've really been in love with the console and ordered one shortly afterwards.

Now there's potential for me to do an indepth issue of the show just for the GP2X, designed to give a much better look at the handheld, but more importantly for me, show it's strengths and how the GP2X can be better than the PSP for many people (I can't help it, I just love it that much).

SO - what I'm doing here is writing a few things that I think could potentially make the GP2X much better than it is, and would very much appreciate any discussion of thoughts. While I could easily write all I need to for a special GP2X issue of the show, I would much rather do it by really getting the opinions of the community, especially coders so that they can say if certain things can really be expected for the future. I'm making a second post after this, which will start off the ideas. Ultimately The aim of the special issue of the show is to widen knowledge of the console, but also perhaps to help focus enthusiasm back into the community so we can perhaps have more devoted coders, and more GP2X users supporting those coders.

Here is the Youtube link for the GP2X issue of the show. Shows done in 2007 will have a slightly different format, hopefuly with some improvements. I had no access to a GP2X at the time of making the show, so it isn't new footage, but you will hopefully see what I was trying to do, and will get an idea of what I'm going for if I do indeed make the special issue.
I don't want anybody to think I'm here bitching about anything, or demanding that any work gets done, it's all just discussion.

OK, I will start off small. The GP2X is still young, and has much potential so the discussion could be huge with little need to 4 me to shove it all into 1 post .

Firstly, I think one of the potentially gretest things for the GP2X would be a PSX emulator that works at full or playable speed. The reason for this is that at the moment the GP2X has a good number of emulators, but they are all for the more classic consoles, and this really seems to mean that the console appeals mostly to old timers who really dig the oldskool stuff and don't mind shelling out money just for that.
I believe that one of the slogans for a recent competition winning banner ad was "your mis-spent youth in a box" or something to that effect. Oldskool is fine, but I would really like to think the console can be seen as a more contemorary accessory as well as for oldies, and good PSX emulation would be a big step in that direction.
My somewhat obvious question is, do you think it's a realistic hope?
The factors I take into account are the time/skill at the disposal of the emulator coder(s) and ofcourse, the hardware capabilities of the console. I would imagine that thanks to the PSP's bigger coder base, and graphics accelerator it will be easier to do on that console, but I might be mistaken, so please give me your thoughts on that. From what I have read on the GP2X wiki, the odds seem in favor of it never happening.

Secondly, The very fact that the console is in it's youth is a big strength in terms of potential. However, it seems that a lot of this potential is controled by GPH, who appear somewhat slow to improve things. Let me elaborate.
There are certain things that the console seems capable of achieving (atleast to my knowledge) that depend very much on firmware upgrades. 1 good example is support for more media types. Infact, I believe that for a while GPH mis-stated the capabilities to include wmv and MPEG as already supported, which in turn led many websites to report wrongly about the console when writing articles. A wider range of supported formats would go a long way to making the console a VERY powerful media player, and of course, kicking PSP ass in terms of media support, however we haven't got that yet.
Do many of you believe that this will intime be capable? More importantly do you think it will be done in a somewhat timely fashion? GPH's conduct in the console's progress is a bit of a grey area for me, it's difficult to work out exactly how far they will help in that sense, so again, thoughts appreciated.


Thirdly, and this is slightly related to the second topic; should the GP2X be given support for more external peripherals, and how much do you think this will add to it's appeal? Here's an example.
I believe I read in the GP2X wiki that using an SDIO WIFI card, the GP2X could have wifi capabilities. Do you think this ability will ACTUALLY arrive? Does anyone think that eventually this will be part of a firmware release, along with a (NAND residing) web browser? I can't help but think this is another example of something that would add great appeal to the console, but do existing users really hope for such a thing as this, or other such ideas for greater appeal of the console?


That's a lot to think about right there, but remember, the theme of the discussion is realistic potential for future GP2X capapbilites. I don't just want to know if something is technically possible but if YOU actually think it will happen. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
-Playdough
(AKA Dr. Nemesis)

The PSP has a PSX emulator courtesy of Sony themselves, so it is extremely good. The GP2X's will never reach quite that level, but there is a good chance it will be very playable. Unai and Zodttd seem confident it is doable, and Rixed's gpu940 may open some things up for it.

Personally, that's not what interests me about the GP2X. If it did nothing but play c64 games as well as it does, I'd be happy.

What I'm most interested in for the future is the continuing development of homebrew games and apps. There are some excellent programs available and I look forward to seeing what else comes out each week.

To expound further: I personally couldn't give a whit about Wi-Fi or media aspects. The media portion already meets my needs (OldPlay and CraigAmp, and the movie player's fine for the scarce times I use it).

As for emulation, all I'd really want to see is a few of the current emulators go a step further. hu6280 is amazing but I'd love saving and CD music support. GPFCE again great, but a frontend would be sweet. Amiga emulation just needs a little more (but it's amazing what has already been achieved!). Ditto SNES. And the new CPS2 emu to be completed.

But that's all gravy. There's already far more to play on it than I could ever get time to enjoy. At the moment, I just love following the community to keep up on things.

Ouch, I didn't know about the official PSX emu for the PSP (and from what I've seen DAX is even taking that further).

I don't think it really changes anything. If you wanted to play Playstation-like games I imagine you would already have bought a PSP.

Not Necesserilly true.
The fact that one is a fan of PSX games doesn't also mean they are willing to screw around with the PSP to the extent that some firmwares require to allow homebrew and hacks. And the fact that Im also a big homebrew fan means I naturally prefer an open system. But thats going slightly off the main focus of the topic . I imagine the PSX emulator hope is valid from a GP2X fans perspective, whether he/she person owns a PSP or not, even if it's just for the sake of variety.

A decent PSX emu on the Gp2X is just not going to happen. Forget it and move on. For one thing the main coder of it bought a PSP. If you already own a system that does it near perfect (PSP) you are not going to bang your head against the wall to code a far inferior one on a different system. I would say PSX on GP2X is dead. Even if it was continued the GP2X hardware is just not cut out for it and will always be very slow. The PSP has the same Mips CPU family and 3D chip that helps PSX emulation. The GP2X is ARM and has no 3D hardware so don't expect much. I still like the 2D stuff on the Gp2X and the screen matches better for that and that is it's strength to me.

Bah, ARM > MIPS.
but yeah psx will never be that great, duh

Though I won't argue for a second-- I'd take the GP2X's ARM920T processor over a MIPS one anyday-- the only reason the PSX emulator for PSP is any good is not because "Sony made it so it's very good". The hardware in the PSP is extremely similar and intercompatible with the original PSX. So it's not even appropriate to really call it an emulator-- because most of its functionality is provided by actual hardware. Few people call PSX backward compatibility in the PS2 'an emulator', same thing really. Just compatible hardware.

Well the PS2 has a PSX chip inside for compatability plus some (probably small) HAL so it's very different from PSP vs PSX

I care much less about the PSX emulator than the olders computers systems that are emulated.
For me the GP2x puts the system that I grew up with (the Atari 800) back into my hands and lets me play games I played many years ago. That is what is great about it!

For all intents and purposes, the analogy holds up reasonably well. PSX imitation chip or PSP-- they both share the MIPS microprocessor architecture, both provide a necessary form of geometric transformation, and a means to draw to the display-- so the most stressful parts of the operation of a PSX game are in place. On a system with a different CPU architecture and no 3D accelerator, they both must be emulated and a software renderer must be run concurrent with it.

Well, the future for PSX emulator does definately seem bleak then. On the one hand it's too bad we won't be able to add PSX to the list of emulators, but then again it does bode well for the GP2X developing a very different and unmistakable identity in the future.

What about the other areas?

The GP2X is easily more than just a games machine, what are the thought's for the non-game programs that might arrive in the future?

may this fact attract your attention: only people without an association to any psx-emulator suggest that psx-emulation is impossible!!
if you want to know something about it, ask zodttd, unai or tinnus.
Keep psx-emulation in mind, maybe the GPU940 project will speed up something!!!

It's so easy!

I don't agree: GPU "emulation" on another GPU is much more difficult than emulating a CPU on another one. If the pipelines are wildly different, you will have to do it in software.

I don't know the GPU of the PSX and the PSP but I bet they are different: IIRC PSP supports curved surfaces while the PSX does not, which probably implies their GPU are different (now I will have to check if the GPU of the PSP is a superset of the one in the PSX, but I am sure this is not the case).

However HW rasterization is probably enough to make PSX run fast on the PSP, no matter the GPU

Unfortunately, enthusiasm isn't enough to get the job done sometimes. I think it's amazing zodttd got it running as well as he did, but I'm not sure there was much more juice left in the tank of the GP2x at that stage. Even the PSP's emulator by Sony themselves experiences some slowdown running at 333mhz. I know people keep saying that the ARM arch. is far superior, but what good are ARM's without LEGS?

Playdough, most the time i'm using my gamepark to hack out music using piggy tracker. and firestarter has already released plans for building a hardware midi converter for the gp2x.

the rest of the time i'm reading ebooks or listening to music with gmu. here, the young age of the gp2x is undoubtedly a strength, and we can be sure that apps for these tasks will be more and more polished as time goes on.

i've gone off about it before--but the coolest thing about the gp2x might be introducing otherwise-rom-kiddies to linux and programming. if they're familiar with basic scripting from getting their games to run, digging deeper into the system and making their little machine do exactly what they want will seem a less daunting task.

i'm curious if we can expect faster boot up times (crossing fingers) as gamepark refines the firmware or the open2x project matures. it's the only thing about my gp2x that irks me.

From the video I saw, the latest firmware is considerably slower to bootup

But that firmware seems to be more of a "starter" fimware with built-in help videos, not so much an upgrade to 2.1.x.

That's the impression I got too, but then why such a huge version leap to 3.0

Intereting stuff, Starpause. It would be really great to here all the atypical things people are doing with their GP2X's. Emulation is an easy one, and probably the main reason people buy the console. It would be really good to see exactly how verstile people are making it (BTW are there many Qtopia users here?).

Because of the PSP Blasphemy thread that is active right now, I do kinda wonder what the long term future is for the GP2X if the PSP becomes easier and easier to use as a homebrew device. Yes, the PSP has some downsides, but so does the GP2X. Ultimately will Sony send out the assassins to shutdown people like DAX, or will the PSP homebrew scene continue to thrive and push this scene into a much more obscure position?

My reasoning is that if both handhelds are eventually great for homebrew, will the few reasons to choose a GP2X outweigh the greater variety of options the PSP offers (homebrew + a slew of commercial games + more coders)?

Back when PSP homebrew was limited to a much smaller number of PSP's the choice was much easier.

I didn't buy a GP2X for emulators, it was to have a low priced portable Linux computer which is easy to develop for.

The openness of the GP2X (hardware and software) is something the PSP will never have, there's no saying what Sony will do, there aim is to peddle their overpriced games and movies, there's no money for them in homebrew.

The function I use most is the e-book reader on my 7 minute journey to/from work.

Besides, the PSP2 will be out by the end of the year (the DAX situation is pushing that timetable forward). Who knows what the landscape will be like then?

For me, the GP2X is far more suited to what I want from a handheld, and I prefer using it more than a PSP. The screen and controls are better suited for emulating anything older than the PS1, and the open Linux ethos is better suited for homebrew and applications. Add SD, AA, TV-Out, BOB, ergonomics, weight, etc and you'll see the two remain distinctly different options.

The interesting thing for me is that the openess was the main reason I was drawn to the GP2x. But I realised that's more of a feature a developer would want. I found myself getting a bit bored with how easy everything was. So when I got a PSP I loved the fact that everything takes effort to do. That you have to use exploits and hacks and emulating other firmware to do whatever blah blah. It makes it all a lot more interesting for me. I seem to spend more time hacking around and trying to get things to work or figuring out why they won't work than actually playing games. I imagine this is exactly the kind of satisfaction and enjoyment a developer gets on the GP2x (or any platform really). So yeah, in the end the openess has actually proved to be a negative thing for me. I guess I'm weird.

Some very interesting points. Gunpei, the GP2X is indeed it's own thing, with distinct differences. The line just seems to get blurier as the PSP becomes more homebrew possible.

Subcon, funnily enough the "openess" also grabbed me with the GP2X even though I'm not a coder. For some reason I took it to mean that it would always be better than the PSP, in that it has no master as it isn't part of a greedy and lawsuit-happy commercial machine (Sony, something many people seem to also think), but most of all, and I may well have been wrong to think this, but I associated this great freedom with limitless possibility (atleast in terms of innovation if not technical achievment).

Then ofcourse, I read the great many things that can't be done on the system, and the initial childlike enthusiasm I had at the begining (which was huge) is somewhat diminished.
That's not to say I'm not happy with my GP2X. I still love it, theres just no narcotic-like, delusional cloud of haze around my head everytime I pick it up now.


Another big question I wanted to ask is,
Since it's an open system, do you think it will ever develope a strong commercial side in terms of software?
I imagine there isn't too much call for non-game software to be commercial, do you think there will be many more games on a similar production level as Payback?
It will be interesting to see if the non commercial games will vastly increase in quality.
I believe on Youtue I saw a game called Rapid Racoon. It would indeed be gret to see an increase in games of this kind of quality as time goes on.

Perhaps in the future there will be more colaboration with games being made by whole teams of enthusiats, somewhat similar to the FPS modding scene at the moment, having coders, modelers, texture artists, etc.
Right now it all seems too much on the shoulders of the coders. Multi talented teams would be a great evolution, I think.
In summary I wonder if there will be a time when emulation isn't the main lifeblood of the GP2X.

I can't see a strong commercial side developing. There isn't enough of a user base and GPH hasn't got the commercial clout that Sony and Nintendo have. I don't see why it should be any different to what happened with the GP32.

Non commercial games in general (with a few exceptions) don't match up to commercial games, just look at the Linux game scene. Commercial games take a lot of time and money to produce, thinks most amateur developers don't have.

There may well be more collaboration in the future, but I don't think many people will be buying the GP2X for new games - anyone wanting regular new commercial games should get a DS (or a PSP).

The GP2X is never going to be a PSP killer and it shouldn't try to be. The point is that it is an open system, what happens now depends on the community, which is the GP2X's strongest asset.

This thread seems to have come to an end. Thanks to everyone who has contributed, you were all very helpful. At this point it definately seems that the GP2X community is not at it's best, be it because of people being unhappy with firmware updates, undelieverd promises from GPH, or a slow down of developement from within the community.
As can be seen by some recent threads, the community has definately seen better times. The threads were very interesting, and raise some good points on both sides of the arguments.

Needless to say, these aren't really the kind of things I wanted to put in the GP2X special issue of the show, but I do think these opinions can't just be ignored. I hope I will still make that issue, but perhaps I will do it at a time things improve a little. I was really hoping to make the show very community inspired to reflect the open source nature of the console, and it's reliance on community. Honestly right now I feel theres a drop in overall community moral (due to the migration of some key coders?).

Part of the reason why I can't help but compare the GP2X to the PSP, is because the GP2X is supposed to be the best thing that happened to handheld homebrew, and I believed it. As much as I love this console, I can't really say for sure that anymore. Maybe times are just changing .

Ah, you know, like any marriage, this community has it's ups and downs

It seems that, to get any mainstream acceptance, the console is going to have to promote itself and get mainstream commercial games working "in addition" to the homebrew community.

With my little insight into the machine, (two days of ownership and a month of research) it, unfortunately seems in the long-term that it may well be a victim of it's own niche market???

Maybe mainstream acceptance isn't a goal, as I say above, with my minimal exposure to the machine, I don't know.